[E-rundbrief] Info 791 - WSF 09: Walden Bello on Capitalism

Mo Jan 26 19:30:02 CET 2009

E-Rundbrief - Info 791 - Walden Bello (Focus on the Global South, 
Thailand): It Is Time to Aim Beyond Capitalism. Interview by Alejandro 
Kirk (IPS) at World Social Forum (WSF) 2009, Belem, Brasil.

Bad Ischl, 26.1.2009

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'It Is Time to Aim Beyond Capitalism'

Alejandro Kirk interviews Walden Bello*

BELEM, Brazil, Jan 26   (IPS)  - The World Social Forum meeting this
week in this city in Brazil's Amazon jungle region has an urgent and
crucial task: coming up with alternative solutions for the global crisis
of capitalism now under way, and pushing for democratic control of the
economy and state worldwide, Filipino academic, author and activist
Walden Bello tells TerraViva editor Alejandro Kirk in this interview.

<b>IPS: In the context of the current global crisis, what is the World
    Social Forum's (WSF) most relevant task? </b>

WALDEN BELLO: We are at a very critical historical juncture in which
neoliberal capitalism is unravelling and I think that the WSF is a site
where very serious discussions should be taking place, in terms of both
anticipating what is the likely response of global capitalism as well as
pushing forward alternatives to the current crisis. We must really put
the task of the WSF in the context of the truly massive global crisis.

IPS: So Belem is to be a crucial stage for the WSF's future?

WB: Yes, definitely. It would be extremely critical for global civil
society at this point to respond to this crisis beyond the kind of
stabilising solutions you are beginning to see in Europe and the
United States.

The capitalist elites are in many ways already going beyond
neoliberalism, so I think on the one hand it is really important in
Belem to come to a consensus about the crisis of capitalism and we ought
to have very serious discussions on how to go beyond (such) solutions. I
think we need to contend alternatives from within the system, like an
expansion of social democracy for instance.

<b>IPS: How can the WSF come out with such a response and how could it
    possibly implement it? </b>

WB: What you really need to look at seriously, in Belem, is to identify
not just a crisis of neoliberalism but a crisis of capitalism. We're
talking about the roots of the crisis being dynamic at the capitalist
mode of production. The alternative to that is something we need to
seriously come to grips with.

We really need to frame our responses in terms of common universal
values, like the question of justice, the question of equity, creating
an alternative that really cares for the welfare of people. I think the
discussion in Belem will really be very critical in terms of framing the
alternatives.

As for implementation, you really need to be quite innovative. We need
to be looking at solidly linking our movement across different
countries, interacting with respect to the alternatives that are being
pushed. It can't be easy, but this kind of sharing of experiences,
creation of networks, sharing of ideas - I think this is something that
the forum will play a very critical role at.

<b>IPS: In your writings you seem to avoid classical terms such as
    socialism, revolution and the like, to describe the kind of society
    the Forum should be looking forward to. </b>

WB: I do not so much shrink from articulating the alternative. We are
looking at democratising the ownership of means of production. Whether
you call that socialism or people's democracy, or democratic socialism,
what you are really talking about is democratic control of the economy.

We need to be looking at the possible articulation of mixed economies,
with different systems of ownership within the economy, which will
probably include social enterprises, cooperatives, private enterprise
and state enterprises.

That's one dimension. Another dimension is the question of refocusing on
the internal economy, the domestic economy instead of export markets;
national economic development. We would be talking about the critical
importance of equity, fairly strong mechanisms of income and
redistribution. And about an ecologically sustainable alternative. I
don't want to use the term socialism because there are certain
connotations of what socialism is all about, that bring up the image of
Eastern Europe.

<b>IPS: Is something like this actually happening anywhere in the world
    right now? </b>

WB: I think what we are seeing are efforts along this line in a number
of countries, certainly in Bolivia, Ecuador and Venezuela. I mean, of
course each process has its own particularities, its own dynamics.

I would say that as the crisis deepens - and I think we are at the
beginning stages of this crisis - peoples' struggles are going to go
beyond the very traditional mechanisms of stabilisation now under way.
So I would imagine that we will see more and more of these efforts, for
democratic control and participation as the crisis deepens.

<b>IPS: In this process, developing countries take the lead and the
    industrialised North stays behind? </b>

WB: I wouldn't say that. I think people are still stunned by the crisis,
especially in the United States, Europe and Japan. The crisis is moving
very very quickly.  I would not discount the emergence of popular
movements in these areas of the world.

<b>IPS: There is also the risk of radical right-wing reactions such as
    those of France and Italy. </b>

WB: That is definitely a possibility. What we are going to see is three
possibilities: a radicalisation to the left, a radicalisation to the
right û this a great danger in the North, in places like Italy and
France û or just paralysis. So there is no guarantee that progressive
alternatives are going to grow. Progressives, with their knowledge of
society and their strategy, must fight for hegemony.

IPS: The German Left party seems to be an exception to the rule.

WB: I think that Die Linke in Germany is a very very good example of
trying to innovatively grasp the situation, moving from denouncing to
pushing beyond social democratic responses to the current situation.
Creating a situation to move towards people power, participatory
democracy in both the economy and the state.

<b>IPS: You have recently written that the global balance of power is
    shifting to the South. </b>

WB: What I mean is that what we've seen over the last decade has been
the weakening of the traditional centre economies. We saw that the U.S.
went into this consumption, finance-driven form of capitalism, financed
by China. Chinese credit has kept the U.S. economy going.

In the last 10 to 15 years, countries like Brazil, China and India have
become relatively stronger economic actors with the shift of jobs and
capital; they have become the creditors of the North. That's what I mean
in terms of balance of power. I'm not saying they have become the new
centre. Hegemonic power continues to be the North , especially the
United States.

IPS: Is this positive for the kind of struggle you call for?

WB: It depends. Overall, the less hegemonic countries of the North
become, and the more power is diffused to the global system, I think it
is a positive development. On the other hand you must realise that these
countries (of the South), these economies are controlled by, for all
purposes, a capitalist elite, and in many ways, for instance in the case
of China, it is less accountable than, say, the elite in the U.S.

So on the one hand the positive thing is a diffusion of power, and on
the other we are also talking about these new economy actors that are
making a big difference, they are under the domination of a
developmental elite. I think the challenge in the North is really for
progressive movements to push their agenda, which is more
participation and more democratic control of the means of production,
of economic decision-making. The agenda is the same for movements both
in the North and the South.

<b>IPS: In this context, how do you see the Israeli attack on
    Palestine? </b>

WB: I have held all along that there are certain key struggles that the
WSF must take a very strong stand on. Definitely, the Palestinian issue
is one of them. The WSF should take a very strong stand condemning
Israel and supporting the right of Palestinians to their own state, and
supporting the right of return of Palestinians to what is now Israel.

I really feel the WSF can no longer say that we just want to provide a
roof for discussions to take place. I have always said that that kind of
academic posture will eventually dissipate the spirit of the WSF, and I
think that has already happened to some extent.

To really reinforce its soul and continue to provide a strong kind of
energy in support of civil society movements, the Palestine issue, and
Afghanistan, the issue of capitalism really - these are issues in which
the WSF must take a very strong stand.

IPS: Such an approach demands a permanent structure.

WB: Yes, I think that we should find ways of really making the
International Council a more accountable body. The problem now with the
IC is that it is mainly a discussion group rather than a body with real
effective powers to move the struggle on.

IPS: Should the IC be an elected body?

WB: We can't be tied to forms, but we really need an International
Council that is accountable, that is representative, so to speak. There
are various kinds of formal mechanisms. I feel also that we should
probably have a more effective kind of Secretariat that is there not
organising the next forum but to ensure the implementation of
resolutions and the accumulation of lessons.

One of the problems of the WSF has been that there is no sense of
accumulation of lessons from one WSF to another, so accountability,
accumulation of lessons and decision-making that is democratic - this
is the challenge of the WSF. Having said that, despite all the
unnevenness and weaknesses of the WSF, it is still a very important
mechanism for global civil society to be able to influence the course
of global events.

(*This report was published by TerraViva, an independent IPS daily, at
the World Social Forum in Belem, Brazil.)

www.ipsterraviva.net

(END/IPS/LA WD IP IF FM CS WF DV SU QA/AK/SW/09)

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